03.26.08
Timothy Sykes is full of bullship
[Edit 8/18/2009 - Since writing this article I have changed from Tim Sykes' biggest critic to his biggest fan. Please see this article on my new trading blog about how my opinion of Tim Sykes changed.]
Timothy Sykes, the boy wonder who turned $12,000 into $1.65 million while still a teenager, has abandoned his hedge fund Cilantro to re-create his day-trading achievement in full view of the internet on his new blog. Sykes is best described as young, brash, egotistical, and annoying. Of course, an impartial observer would describe me in much the same way. Timmay and I also share the preference for shorting stocks over buying them. But rather than being two peas in a pod, we are polar opposites: Tim is the quintessential short-term trader and I am the archetypal buy-and-hold value investor.
I am not like some people who say that day trading is a crock and that it never works. It can work for some people some of the time. The problem with Tim Sykes is that he encourages others to follow in his footsteps by buying his $297 DVD trading seminar. There are several problems with buying a trading system such as Tim’s:
- Even assuming that some strategy works, if enough people follow that strategy it will cease to work. This is exactly what happened to Richard Dennis, the noted commodities trader, who famously lost tens of millions of dollars in 1988 after his trend-following strategy stopped working. Sykes of course likes trading microcap stocks with relatively thin markets. This means that his system is especially prone to break when too many people start using it.
- Trading takes a lot of time; this is particularly true for Timmay’s day trading and momentum trading. Most people have jobs, and very few people have enough in savings and enough trading talent to make a lot of money trading. So for most people, time learning to trade would be better spent nurturing their career or working a second job.
- Trading any system takes incredible self-restraint and guts. Very few people have the self-control to be able to stick to a system even when it is not making money. This is even harder if a trader buys a system (say, from Tim Sykes), because it is harder to become truly convinced in the system if that trader did not invent it himself or herself.
Traders and investors should steer clear of Sykes’ DVD and his trading system. Those few who could be good traders would likely do better developing their own system rather than following Tim’s. Of course, I find Tim amusing, so I encourage you to read his blog for its amusement value.
Disclosure: I had no connection to any person mentioned at the time I first posted this. Since I first published this post I have bought many of Sykes’ products, successfully used his trading system, and am now an affiliate of his (earning a commission on anyone who buys his DVDs using a link from my site).
Timothy Sykes said,
March 26, 2008 at 9:49 pm
I wish you’d actually viewed the DVD or read my book before you ripped on what I’m trying to do. If you had, you’d see:
1. I’ve had plenty of experience with destroying profitable patterns thanks to my big mouth so that now I teach people to play all different angles, especially since my short selling angle isn’t for everyone.
2. Unlike the true frauds out there, I don’t teach my students to just memorize the patterns, no, I want them to understand the variables that align to create those patterns so they can adapt to the inevitable changes.
3. I teach people to focus on the most liquid microcraps and smallcraps out there, crap like COIN and CPST, both of which trade MILLIONS of shares daily, aka plenty of liquidity to go around
4. My best trades come about rarely, I prove day in and day out I trade too much so I teach others to focus only on the most ideal, which usually occur 1-4/month, aka plenty of time to live a normal life while waiting for such opportunities.
5. I could care less what you or anybody else thinks of me, amusing, fine, but I will teach as many people as possible about the entire microcrap niche, going long and short, short-term and long-term…next time do more DD and get your facts straight!
PS I encourage you to purchase my book/DVD and see for yourself, the DVD package (which includes an autographed book) comes with a 60-day money-back guarantee (minus a small restocking fee cuz restocking is a #$*#^@) (good thing there’s only been 2 returns so far, or less than 1% of those sold, aka people are loving it!)
Tracy Coenen said,
March 27, 2008 at 9:52 am
Ouch! You’re tough on Timmay!!!
You know I like Timmay. Sometimes I cringe at what he says/writes…
BUT – I do admire his motivation and his willingness to share his strategy with others. He sells the DVDs – so what? Good for him if he can make money by teaching his strategy. (Heck… I’m now writing a book on fraud investigations so I can make money by teaching others MY methodology.)
I don’t use Tim’s system and I haven’t bought his DVDs because I’m not interested in doing what he does. But I don’t fault him for teaching others. Yes, you’re right… if too many people use his strategy, it totally throws the whole thing out of whack and it won’t work anymore.
But why fault him for that? I like his openness about his trades on his site. And he definitely is entertaining…
Sykes’ Saturday Seven: March 29th, 2008 Edition | Timothy Sykes - Stock Trader, Author, Entrepreneur said,
March 29, 2008 at 10:56 am
[...] This blogger tries to pick a fight with me in order to get some press for his crappy little blog…that’s fine, I’ll oblige. See my comments under his post correcting his assumptions with facts. Only one thing worse than a value investor—a value investor who jumps to conclusions without doing the proper research beforehand! [...]
michael said,
March 29, 2008 at 11:09 am
My responses to Tim’s points:
1&2. What you are teaching people is still a style of trading. Even if they are not just memorizing patterns, the whole style could conceivably stop working at some point. This was exactly what happened to the trend followers like Richard Dennis in the commodities markets.
3. I traded a couple of the stocks you did, and yeah, there’s millions of shares traded, but they are still not liquid enough for me to day-trade. Anyone with a decent-sized account cannot afford to play your game.
4. The problem is that the trader still needs to find the stocks and opportunities to trade. For example, I am not a frequent trader; yet I spend a lot of time finding the right stocks to short. While it only took me a month to increase my portfolio by 20% with a short position in LSCG, it takes me 20+ hours a week searching for such great opportunities. Most such opportunities do not pan out. My bet is your followers likewise spend a good chunk of time looking for the right patterns.
5. While I didn’t want to waste $300 on your DVDs and book, I have read a lot about you and have read your website. I would hope that you, who espouses ‘transparent investment management’, discusses a very similar strategy in your book as you do on your blog.
michael said,
March 29, 2008 at 11:09 am
BTW Tim, thanks for disparaging my ‘crappy little blog’.
michael said,
March 29, 2008 at 11:19 am
Wait, Tim, so LESS THAN 1% (total of 2) people have returned your DVDs. That means that fewer than 200 people bought them. Seriously, that is pretty weak.
michael said,
March 29, 2008 at 11:19 am
Sorry, I meant slightly more than 200, not fewer.
Timothy Sykes said,
March 29, 2008 at 11:21 am
1. Screw all those people with decent sized accounts, they already have tons of opportunities, this is for the little guys!
2. Small companies and their shareholders will ALWAYS hype them up to raise capital and sell at higher prices, the game n ever stops, ALWAYS trading opportunities, no matter what angle you take.
3. My patterns are damn easy to spot, not many stocks up 200% in 1 week. But who cares if you spend time researching, there’s no free money in this biz
4. My book is about how I came to this strange biz model, I made a fortune off suckers, lost a bit of it when I unwittingly became one and now I’m determined to help as many people as possible.
Timothy Sykes said,
March 29, 2008 at 4:08 pm
Yah dude, i don’t think u realize how small-time i am, i’m just a guy sitting on a couch trying to get other small traders/investors to learn to play the game so they won’t keep losing and thinking this stuff is random
Jon said,
March 29, 2008 at 4:49 pm
Tim is such an idiot when you actually read his site you understand. He lost all his money and expect what – to help others lose their money too? Tim makes $$$ off promoting stocks… like what he did as he explains in his book. On message boards, chats, etc. Watch out!
Timothy Sykes said,
March 29, 2008 at 5:12 pm
I lose 35% on CYGT when i ignored my “idiotic trading rules”. Wow, I guess the lack of due diligence gene isn’t limited to this blog’s author but to its reader (s?) too
Weekend Reading - March 29, 2008 | My Adventures into The Street said,
March 29, 2008 at 8:13 pm
[...] than arguing on this virtual idiot box. If you’re looking for something amusing, check out recent criticism about a microcapper and his response plus ensuing comments. And I thought the Yahoo/Google Finance [...]
Mike said,
March 30, 2008 at 6:36 am
You both have valid trading styles that reflect who you are and what is important to you. Why do you bash each other? I value invest and will often day trade around my postion. The reason I make fun of Value investors is that they use it as excuse to be lazy. They wake up one day and thier account is destroyed then they start to blame the broker/blog writer/newsletter scribe et al.
michael said,
March 30, 2008 at 10:32 am
@Mike – we bash each other because it is fun and is a good mental workout. There are plenty of people who are (or call themselves) value investors who are no good at what they do, just as there are plenty of money-losing daytraders. Those people should just invest in index funds and leave the trading and value investing to those who are more skilled.
gerlando said,
April 2, 2008 at 1:35 pm
Michael, You mention you prefer short sells but you’re a buy and hold value investor. That sounds contradictory, what am I missing?
michael said,
April 2, 2008 at 2:13 pm
I buy and hold on both the long and short sides. Long, I look for solid companies that are good values, and I hold them until others recognize the value. Short, I look for the opposite and I remain short until the market recognizes that I am correct. I don’t think it is contradictory, but I guess there are others who do think that ‘value investors’ can’t be short sellers. It is only a label, though.
Save $100 With The TIMalerts + PennyStocking Combo Deal, Already Converting Haters Into Believers… | TIM - Timothy Sykes said,
July 15, 2008 at 5:04 pm
[...] late March 2008, a value investor/blogger named Michael Goode wrote a blog post entitled “Timothy Sykes is full of bullship“. Needless to say, I disagreed with his assumption-making, fact-lacking argument and we went [...]
USS Now 47% Below Yesterday’s TIMalert To Short Sell That Bitch | TIM - Timothy Sykes said,
July 30, 2008 at 5:10 pm
[...] aka Michael Goode aka my one time biggest hater (see his pre-TIMalerts assumption-laced “Timothy Sykes is full of bullship” post, who, no matter the $ I’ve made him, now $10,000+ all based on a $500 investment [...]
michael said,
July 30, 2008 at 7:14 pm
Blah blah blah … so Tim is annoyed that I have not updated my article. Yeah, I’m making money trading like him now, and I’ll update this article someday.
http://www.timothysykes.com/admin/2008/07/30/uss-now-47-below-yesterdays-timalert-to-short-sell-that-bitch/
Pondering Offering A Lifetime TIMalerts Subscription Option… | TIM - Timothy Sykes said,
August 14, 2008 at 2:04 pm
[...] Goode, immortalized by his now classic “Timothy Sykes is full of bullship” blog post (read it HERE)-turned-greatest-fan (evidenced by THIS post) [...]
Michael Importico said,
August 15, 2008 at 10:46 am
Tim is real and I love his style of trading and honesty. I lost a fortune the market as of a few months ago before I even heard of Tim. I have been following Tim for a few months now. I think he is excellent. I am getting a decent amount of money together and I am going to give trading another chance thanks to Tim. I am going to use his techniques.
TIM IS THE MAN…HE CALLS IT AND TELLS IT LIKE IT IS! As for you Michael, that wrote this article…You are an idiot. Your comments are childish.
michael said,
September 1, 2008 at 2:41 pm
Michael–you acknowledge that you have lost a fortune in the market; how exactly does this qualify you to opine on my criticisms of Tim’s methods?
Goode Value Investing Blog » Why I Paid Timothy Sykes $2,000 said,
September 3, 2008 at 9:49 am
[...] previously wrote about Timothy Sykes and his attempts to teach stock trading to the masses. That post is now my most commented-upon post [...]
Introducing The TIMalerts Lifetime Membership, Yours for $2,000 | TIM - Timothy Sykes said,
September 3, 2008 at 2:37 pm
[...] after initially writing the now infamous post “Timothy Sykes if full of bullship” post HERE is the first TIMalert lifetime [...]
Goode Value Investing Blog » How to Get Rich Trading Penny Stocks said,
September 26, 2008 at 12:39 pm
[...] and even more skeptical about his ability to teach others to trade successfully. My article, “Timothy Sykes is Full of Bullship,” started a dialogue between Tim and myself. I started reading his blog and following his [...]
TIM - Timothy Sykes » » Another PennyStocking/TIMalert Testimonial: Michael Goode & His $40,000 In Profits Since June said,
October 1, 2008 at 1:12 pm
[...] remember Michael Goode? He wrote the now infamous Timothy Sykes Is Full Of BullShip post, then went onto make $3,000 in a matter of weeks using the PennyStocking DVD strategies, [...]
Jeff Bowyer said,
November 13, 2008 at 3:03 am
Timothy Sykes is a hypocrite.
After I discovered severe corruption at Eurostat, the statistical office of the European Union, I wrote a fully documented message detailing the allegations, which I posted on Timothy Syke’s website.
In a very short time, my message was deleted. When I contacted Sykes, his excuses ran the gamut from “the file size was too large” to “the message doesn’t fit the theme of our website” to “you don’t write good enough”.
Timothy Sykes is not a prophet who exposes “manipulative forces at work in companies, the media, ANALysts, etc.” as he proclaims. Timothy Sykes is a liar who probably works *for* the manipulative forces as a facade of opposition.
If you would like to receive a copy of my message about corruption at Eurostat that includes graphics, please contact me.
Jeffrey W. Bowyer
jbowyer@seznam.cz
michael said,
November 13, 2008 at 8:08 am
Jeff, Tim is primarily a stock trader. Eurostat problems have little to do with stock trading. Find an economics site to post it on or contact a journalist who deals with economics issues. His blog or my blog for that matter is not the right place to post such material.
GetRich said,
November 26, 2008 at 7:33 pm
Sheeet…There is only one life…I will try everything I could that sounds logical to make money that is legal…
richard said,
December 21, 2008 at 5:30 pm
“Even assuming that some strategy works, if enough people follow that strategy it will cease to work.”
Couldn’t this be applied to all investing strategies, even buy-and-hold value investing?
Goode Value Investing & Trading Blog » How I Stopped the Alanco (ALAN) Bull Raid said,
May 16, 2009 at 7:48 pm
[...] 2008: Timothy Sykes is Full of Bullship September 2008: Why I Paid Timothy Sykes $2000 September 2008: How to Get Rich Trading Penny Stocks [...]
How One Of My Greatest Students, Made $17,000+ Last Week To Bring His Cumulative TIM Profits To $70,000+ | TIM - Timothy Sykes said,
May 18, 2009 at 12:33 pm
[...] 2008: Timothy Sykes is Full of Bullship September 2008: Why I Paid Timothy Sykes $2000 September 2008: How to Get Rich Trading Penny Stocks [...]
Tim said,
June 14, 2009 at 1:28 pm
Hah. Don’t even bother READING this article, just skip to the bottom:
Disclosure: I had no connection to any person mentioned at the time I first posted this. Since I first published this post I have bought many of Sykes’ products, successfully used his trading system, and am now an affiliate of his (earning a commission on anyone who buys his DVDs using a link from my site).
In short? This entire article is a waste of time because in the end the author changes his mind.
PS: I think Tim Sykes is cool because his name is Tim, doesn’t matter that he’s a douche, because I’m one too, and if you pussies have a problem with people saying “I’m looking for them to fail,” then the trading business isn’t for you, because the market doesn’t CREATE wealth, it transfers it, and we’re ALL looking for the OTHER GUY to screw up. Tim just says it because he has balls… all Tims do.
Michael Goode said,
June 14, 2009 at 1:53 pm
Tim — I say the same thing at the top. My criticisms of the strategy do still apply (maybe not #1), and I do think blindly following someone else’s trading strategy, no matter how good, is foolish.
4 Lessons Learned From $31,559 In 2009 Trading Profits… | TIM - Timothy Sykes said,
July 15, 2009 at 3:03 pm
[...] guy up close to $100,000), but he was also once my greatest hater…check out his initial post HERE Spread This [...]
The truth about Tim Sykes from a former critic « Reaper Trades said,
August 18, 2009 at 8:28 am
[...] first came across Sykes in March of 2008 and I wrote this critical post: Timothy Sykes, the boy wonder who turned $12,000 into $1.65 million while still a teenager, has [...]
Morphing from being a Sucker « The Donger Trades said,
October 31, 2009 at 1:44 pm
[...] to Google and typed in “Tim Sykes fraud” and found an article by Michael Goode titled, “Tim Sykes is full of bullship.” I read the article and thought, “HA!” a fraud afterall. Then I noticed that there was [...]
Stocks on Wall Street said,
November 29, 2009 at 2:52 am
If you read into the details Tim Skyes isn’t as great as he sounds, he fakes some of the gains on covestor by not distributing real info on how much he puts in each position etc. Feel free to google his name and read what the real trades/hedge fund managers say about it and why he has never been offered a job on the street. Tim Skyes is barely making over $1 million a year where if he was that good of a trader for a top bank such as Goldman Sachs or J.P. Morgan then he would be raking in over $5-$10 million if not more. Its a fraud scheme and personally I would never recommend reading his blog. Tim is a SCAM!
Michael Goode said,
November 29, 2009 at 10:05 am
Stocks on Wall St:
Your comment about Tim faking his gains on Covestor shows you have no clue what you are talking about. Covestor does not report how large a person’s position is in absolute size; it only reports what percentage of an account is invested in each position while ignoring cash. So of course the percentage returns on Covestor are off. That being said, it is perhaps more impressive that had Tim gone all in on each trade (as he only trades one position at a time most of the time) he would be up 100,000%+ and he would not have blown up.
I know the big wall street traders like to look down on small fry day-traders who do not swing $100m+ trades, but most of those traders have little to no talent and only make money because of the advantages of being at the center of everything. Still, so many of those traders blow up … lionizing people simply because they take huge risks with other people’s money seems rather stupid to me.
Lastly, it is stupid to take your other criticisms of Sykes and then talk about him being a fraud and a scam. Being small-time does not make him a scammer … while many of your hero traders on the street are scammers (because so many of them trade on inside information). I can assure you, having bought Sykes products and having made money trading like him, that he is not a fraud.
How To Build A Multi-Million Dollar Business On The Internet [VIDEO INTERVIEW] said,
January 31, 2010 at 1:06 pm
[...] favorite stories is about this guy named Michael Goode. He had this blog called Good Value, ‘goodevalue.com‘ and out of the blue, this again goes with my hate marketing, out of the blue I see a Google [...]
Timothy Sykes Scam? said,
February 8, 2010 at 7:05 am
[...] 2.) I call traders and “gurus” out on being cowards/frauds for not showing their trades and track records…finance people are freaks/dinosaurs and they don’t understand the importance of transparency…they like to attack me just as I’ve attacked them…unfortunately, whenever anyone researches me for an extended period of time, they will inevitably come to the conclusion that I am 100% real…because I am…and my former #1 hater, Michael Goode, has become one of my top students, up over $120,000…see his initial blog post thinking I was a fraud. [...]
$12,700 Profit Day On These 10 Strong Penny Stocks To Watch said,
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[...] To date, I’ve sold between 2,000 and 3,000 DVDs, mostly to people with under $10,000 in their accounts…when in the world did I ever claim people are making millions? Old man, you’re testing my last nerves with your lies–you forget I have 3000 daily readers who are witness to every single thing I post and say, you have about 30 readers which is the only reason I can imagine you think you can say whatever you want. Reaper is one of my best students AND affiliates and like you, he was skeptical of me too–look at his first blog post saying I was full of BS. [...]